The Disappearance of Albert and Henry Fountain
The Disappearance of Albert and Henry Fountain
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?




 All Forums
 The Disappearance of Albert and Henry Fountain
 Murder on the White Sands - Discuss the book
 Murder on the White Sands
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author  Topic   

coreyrecko
Forum Admin


22 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2008 :  15:57:33  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the place to discuss Murder on the White Sands: The Disappearance of Albert and Henry Fountain (University of North Texas Press, 2007). The first edition hard cover was published in 2007 and the paperback in 2008.

Google AdSense

USA
Mountain View


jimbob
Starting Member



USA
2 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2008 :  09:55:00  Show Profile Send jimbob a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just finished your book and am very impressed. Live in Alamogordo so naturally I was drawn to the book. Every time I bike alongside the Oliver Lee Bypass route I just lierally shake my head as to how his name could be placed on a public thoroughfare? After reading the book I understand how politics greeed and lawlessness were hand in hand. I would like to explore the route Albert and Henry took and also the location of the Wildly Well ruins and hope that they are not located on government land i.e. Ft. Bliss res. or White Sands res.
Good Job Corey.

JIMBOB
Go to Top of Page

coreyrecko
Forum Admin



22 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  18:41:09  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jimbob,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed the book.

Oliver Lee's name is on the park because of his service to the Government later in life, and because he owned the land. But I admit there's times when I've thought the same things.

I'm sorry to say that Wildy well is located on the Fort Bliss firing range and Chalk Hill is located on the White Sands Missile Range. The old wagon road the Fountains took home and Chalk Hill are visible south of the 70. Chalk Hill is about 100 yards east of the historical marker (on the 70) marking the Fountain murders. If you look south from that spot, you'll see two paths. The first is a road still used by the military. Just south of that is the old wagon road.
Go to Top of Page

Shako
Starting Member



USA
3 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2008 :  13:42:46  Show Profile Send Shako a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just finished your book Murder on the White Sands. I have so much to say about this book. I loved it! I had just read Cricket in the Web, an unsolved murder novel in Las Cruces in the 1940s by Paula Moore. I loved that book too. Have you read it? Here are some similarities, political corruption in the democrat party, in which A.B. Fall sets the democrat party up in the 1880s to protect cattle thieves and by the 1940s the party is protecting mobsters, and gambling rings, then the cricket murder breaks down this corrupt power hungry faction. If you know about Cricket in the Web, what did you think about it?



Well for starters the thing that pestered me most is that the professional trackers could not track past the cattle herd. It makes no sense to me. If horsemen rode through an area and cattle went over their tracks, you could still go to the edges of the cattle herd's tracks and re-pick up the tracks of the party your following. Or so I would think. If no tracks of horsemen come out from the edge of the cattle's tracks you'd have to suppose the cattle tracks are directly following the horsemen's tracks to Wildy Wells. (in which case since McNew and others were seen by Clausen at Wildy Wells, and Clausen believed it was Lee's horse that branched off and went towards Jarilla then to Wildy Wells this would make sense) Something was happening there at Wildy Wells for Clausen to have observed the nervouseness. I seriously doubt Clausen would mistake lead for a gun. Your book states what happened when Clausen who tracked one trail arrived at Wildy Wells but not what happened when Llewellyns group arrived there.



I am interested in where Lee's steam pumps were that he supposedly used to possibly burn the bodies. But I do think the bodies were burned as also one lady stated she saw a large fire 10 miles or so south of La Luz, I dont know what in relation that fire would be to James Canyon, but that seems likely to me.



I am sure Gilliland, Lee, and Fall had something to do in the murders because frequently when they refer to Col. Fountain and Son I noticed they compare them to animals to dehumanize them so as not to feel to much guilt for the murders. Fall likes to use snake. Lee likes to use bitch. Gilliland likes to use dog. Then of course Gilliland told the slightly exagerrated story about how they killed the Fountains as well.



A list of questions I have:



Do you still think the bodies are out there somewhere?



What happened to the charred bodies found at James Canyon? (why did Garret think they were not the Fountains but Jack was uncertain) On this topic Garrett I think had only seen photos, but Jack Fountain grew up with them, Jack Fountain would be more reliable to determine this. But I think Garrett after Henry's trial realized Fall had everything sorted out and without a beyond the doubt this is them, it was pointless.



Could Wildy Wells also be known as Wilde Wells? (thats what it appears as on my GPS)



Do you think graves could be dug and then a herd ran over the graves to make the appearances of anything freshly dug disappear?



One thing that bummed me out was I was imagining the bodies being somewhere in a triangle between Chalk Hill, the Jarillas, and Wildy Wells. But at the very end of your book I got hit with the bombshell of the charred bodies in James Canyon.

Were there other people missing at the time in the area?



What happened with the cattle thief cases against Lee's outfit? I imagine they were dismissed and even though Fall said Col. Fountains death would not end up disabling justice in the area, I think it likely.



I think the investigators focused too much on finding murderers first than finding the bodies. If the bodies had been found it would of been a sealed deal I bet especially the ones in James Canyon possibly. I would of looked for the bodies in this fashion, gather up a posse, and tell them okay, your a group of kilers trying to hide bodies, where would you hide them in this geographic area. Eventually you would of found the bodies I think. But then also one girl stated she saw them feed Henry to the pigs.



I was also looking at the names of some of the canyons in the area, theres a deadman's canyon and negro ed canyon in the area of the state park. I thought it odd that out of everyone surrounding Oliver Lee on his ranch one canyon would end up getting named after someone in his outfit. So I think that person in his outfit was special or deserved recognition by the Lees in some way shape or form more so than prime suspects Gilliland and McNew.



I have other questions but don't want to pester you to much. I have another book called Blaze of Glory The Legends of Oliver Lee and Pat Garrett by Ben Tarver ( the next in line to get read). Have you read that one? Ill let you know. So far I looked at it, and I think it had fictional dialogue in it.

Go to Top of Page

coreyrecko
Forum Admin



22 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2008 :  15:45:45  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I have not read Cricket in the Web, but it sounds interesting. Political corruption plagued both parties in New Mexico for so long. I recently gave a speech on the Santa Fe Ring and New Mexico Governor Samuel B. Axtell. That period in the 1870s probably shows New Mexico with its worst corruption, but it remained bad for years.

Nobody ever explained why they could not pickup the tracks after the cattle herd passed the search party. My guess would be that, at least for a time, the cattle herd followed directly over the tracks.

I've talked to experts familiar with forensics, and the consensus seems to be that there would still be something left of the Fountains' remains. Even if the bodies were burned, I'm told it would have been impossible for them to generate enough heat to get rid of the bones completely.

I can only assume the charred bodies in James Canyon are in a pauper's grave. Neither local law enforcement, the county, or the state had any records relating to these bodies, nor are there any detailed records explaining why Garrett thought what he did, or Jack Fountain thought what he did. It is an interesting story, and I would love to find those remains and see them DNA tested, but whatever evidence there was that these were the Fountain remains, it wasn't enough to keep the Fountain family from searching for the remains in the future.

Assuming the bones were of a man and a child, I don't know of another similar disappearance around that time, but there's not enough surviving information to make a judgment. We don't know how long the bones may have been buried there. I would tend to agree with Garrett's opinion over Jack Fountain's because Garrett has had more detective experience, but Garrett did have his flaws as a detective. I would like to have seen a medical expert's opinion on the bones.

Personally, I believe the Fountains' remains may be near the area where the 1950 search focused on, but of course this is only my opinion.

I suppose cattle being run over the freshly buried bodies would e a possibility. There was so much empty land in New Mexico it seems it would be easy to bury a body that, with a little luck, would never be discovered. Even today, if you buried a body between Dog Canyon and Wildy Well (near Orogrande) and only had small groups of men out looking for that tiny grave, what are the odds of it never being discovered.

The indictments against Lee were dropped (pg. 101).

Wildy Well has also been called Wilde Well. I'm surprised it's on the GPS since it's on Fort Bliss property, but if it's near Orogrande, that's it.

I agree with you on finding the bodies, but I think that's what Garrett spent much of his time doing. Had he made out reports like John Fraser did, I think there you'd see a lot of time spent searching for the bodies.

I have heard of but not read Blaze of Glory. All I know is that it is a fictional. How much is based in fact I do not know.
Go to Top of Page

eriklouis
Starting Member



1 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2010 :  11:06:03  Show Profile Send eriklouis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did any of Oliver Lee's descendants oppose the publishing of your book?
Go to Top of Page

coreyrecko
Forum Admin



22 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2010 :  18:05:50  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None opposed it that I heard of, but one New Mexico publisher told me he wouldn't publish the book because the Lee family is still powerful in New Mexico.
Go to Top of Page

Michael Lowery
Starting Member



1 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2015 :  11:37:39  Show Profile Send Michael Lowery a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oliver Lee was my Great, Great Uncle. I grew up with family stories about "Papa Lee" including what happened with Col. Fountain and his little boy. The fight at Wildy Wells was especially personal and interesting from the family's point of view. Is anyone aware for example that Mr. Garret shot Papa Lee in the back after Papa Lee refused to engage him in a gun fight on the streets of Tularossa? Or that Garret and his men ran out of ammunition at Wildy Wells, hung out a white flag made from Garret's under drawers and asked if they could retreat into town? Or that Papa Lee provided medical assistance to the wounded deputy along with food for the retreating posse? I wonder if anyone knows why Col. Fountain took his ailing young son along with him on his last journey and how his poor son died and what part his cowardly father had in his son's death? I sometimes wonder if anyone understands that Col. Fountain was a Yankee carpetbagger taking advantage of the common people of New Mexico for his personal gain and that he was a part of a "ring," or "gang" determined to destroy and oust any Hispanic or Southern landowners in New Mexico for the benefit of the Northern carpetbaggers who had descended on the territory determined to swindle and cheat anyone they could by any means?

Papa Lee was a beloved personage to the common people of New Mexico. The vendetta against him carried on by the Yankee Government and the Santa Fe Ring continued well into the 1960's as exemplified by the land grabs the Federal Government perpetrated on our land at Wildy Wells, most of the White Sands, and of course, dog canyon Ranch.

Even my Great Grandmother's house in Alamogordo was swindled from the people of New Mexico by the government even though her only sin was to have one of her daughters marry Papa Lee's son, Don. When she died the family decided to give the house and property to the State to be a museum of those times so that it could remain as it was and help to educate generations. When I called to find out how the process was going I was told that the house had been turned over to a local real estate company for disposal. After a lot of checking, it turns out that a well known law firm hostile to my family in Santa Fe that had been a part of the old "Santa Fe Ring" had orchestrated this swindle just as they had all the other swindles starting in the late 19th Century. They, when they found out who my family is have refused to speak to me and have let me know that I and my family are not welcome to speak to them in any way other than in the courts.

So, say what you will, any of you: there is more than one side to this story. Both stories are good, probably better than fiction, but there were reasons that the things that happened did happen. I'm personally sorry for Col. Fountain's boy's killing, but if the truth was allowed to be spoken without retribution I think perhaps people would have a much different understanding of what took place. Fountain was a coward. He caused his own son's death. The families of the Gillilands, and the Lees know, but we're not at liberty to speak for a number of reasons. As for Mr. Garret, his disposition is well known and doesn't need repeating here.

Respectfully,

Michael Lowery
Go to Top of Page

coreyrecko
Forum Admin



22 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2015 :  00:02:51  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Michael Lowery, thank you for taking the time to express your opinion here. While I do disagree with some of it; I won't get into that here (as you can probably guess where I'd disagree). Your post does show how important this case, and these people, still are to many.

There are a couple things I would like to mention. Yes, I think most people are aware of Lee's actions at Wildy Well; including how Lee and Gililland defeated the Sheriff's posse, how they allowed them to retreat, and how they helped dying deputy Kent Kearney. It is one of the classic western gunfights (it is a shame that almost nothing is left at the site).

As for Fountain taking an "ailing young son," there's no evidence of Henry having his cold (or being sick in any other way) when Fountain left for Lincoln. We can only guess at when he became sick.
Go to Top of Page

tvcats
Starting Member



USA
1 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2015 :  13:28:24  Show Profile Send tvcats a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you, Michael Lowery. Jim Gililland is my Grand Uncle.

I apologize, I have not read your book, Mr Recko. I have heard of it though.

If anyone has direct evidence against my uncle, please contact me.

Thank you.
Go to Top of Page

coreyrecko
Forum Admin



22 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2015 :  23:18:26  Show Profile Send coreyrecko a Private Message  Reply with Quote
tvcats, there was no direct physical evidence against James Gililland. The only evidence against Gililland, if one chooses to believe it, is the testimony of others that Gililland confessed to and talked about the murder, both in the 1890s and later.

What the physical evidence tells us is there were three men who ambushed the Fountains. While there is physical evidence that point to McNew and Lee and witnesses who claim to have seen them, none of this exists against Gililland, just the supposed confessions, along with very circumstantial evidence of motive and lack of an alibi.
Go to Top of Page
   Topic   
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
The Disappearance of Albert and Henry Fountain © 2000-05 ForumCo.com Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.2 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000
RSS Feed 1 RSS Feed 2
Powered by ForumCo 2000-2008
TOS - AUP - URA - Privacy Policy
ForumCo Free Blogs and Galleries
Signup for a free forum or Go Banner Free